I'm looking for some ideas on forming a stronger bond with Anka, my vasa. She has fledged and has a very minor clip, so she doesn't need me for anything. She's not untrusting, and enjoys being around me, but we rarely physically interact.
Basically, our relationship is this:
Occasionally, usually if she's sleepy, she'll want a head & back rub. She also lets me touch her wings (touch, not pet repeatedly). She steps up ~75% of the times I ask, but typically doesn't stay on my hand too long. She follows me around the room by flying, but doesn't want to be on me.
I did some experimenting by staying home the whole weekend and allowing her to sleep on top of her cage, and never put her back inside. This got her a lot more interested in me, but normality set in when I was back to work on Monday. Plus, that's not really a sustainable lifestyle for us right now.
She is still taking feedings from me, so I can't do anything in the way of clicker training yet.
I didn't want to clip her, and have read a good trainer doesn't need to (but I don't consider myself a good trainer at this point!). But would clipping her be helpful in fostering some dependence, or would it just break her trust in me?
What are some things I can do to develop a friendship with her?
She may never want to be touched much, but I want to at least try to get her to play with me, roll around, accept a harness, and enjoy scratches.
You could try clipping but I doubt it will help as most vasa's even clipped fly very well. I would suggest flight training to help with bonding as well as foot toys that you play with on the bed and get her to be interested in and play with you. Try doing thing together, snuggles will happen as she settles in and when she feels comfortable. Vasa's behavior is very different from other birds and clipping for the sake of bonding will most likely backfire on you. Where as otrher parrots calm down and become dependant vasa's will become more frightened, whine more and possibly bite. Personally I don't agree with making a bird more dependant on a human out of fear, which in all reality is what clipping does. The birds has to depend on the human to keep it safe from predators, because it can't seek safety by flying away. But that is only my opinion and I recognize that not everyone is capable of training or allowing flight for there birds. Vasa's are very driven by food as well so use this to your advantage. Below is the thread about flight training.
Hmmmm....I wonder if this has anything to do with being a female vasa? Since males are the ones who have to try and please, not the females? Maybe she is just taking longer to settle in than her brother Vinnie, or just her personality, ...I am sure its multiple things, but playing together with some foot toys one on one should help bonding, but remember, Vasas wont "bond" to one person like other parrots, which is a good thing more than its a bad thing! Good Luck, Brock, be patient! I am sure she has plenty o' love to give. Shes probably just being a girl......
Anka's baby brother is clipped! We started flight training from the perch and he got to almost 4 feet to my arm and back, but he has digressed back to a foot. He does not, however, hestitate to flap a beeline from his perch to Sasha, or from his window perch to my bed. I think these build confidence in him.
I remember feeling terrified that we weren't bonding, just ask Kimba! If I were you I would definitely try clicker training. Vinnie responded immediately to this. If you can just get her on your knee with a training stick (chopstick, popsicle stick, anything) and teach her "touch" -- click and treat -- you'll will probably see she is eager to learn. I've also noticed that since I taught Vinnie "high five" and "shake hands" he is much more tactile, and uses his feet for hands for more and more things. For example, he never lifted his foot to indicate he wanted to step up before this. Now when he sees me put a new toy or treat in his cage (and he is out) he will lift a foot for me to put him in his cage. Is he more dependent because he can't fly? Yes I guess so. Is it fair? I doubt it. But there are other benefits he seems to enjoy as much as I.
I've also learned we get a lot further when I let Vinnie do things in his own time, like rolling over. He first did this? Maybe a month ago in Central Park, and we both just sat there not knowing what to do LOL. After that I would try to roll him over during play time but it only made him nervous and less trusting of me, so I stopped. Now as of this week he'll spend about 80% of his play time in some kind of a pretzel position.
Do you know that beak grinding slurp sound they make when they are tired? I wait for this before I take Vinnie for bed-time play and snuggling. I put a pillow case on my lap with a bunch of foot toys. If he's feeling rambunctious, well when he's really rambunctious all he wants is to get rid of the pillow case, but when he's just hyper he throws the toys around. In the beginning I would dump a pack of 50 colored popsicle sticks in the middle of the bed and let him peck and chew away, naming every color as he touched it. I find I get a lot further with him if I just let him do his thing without interference, until he wants interaction. When he tires of playing he gets snuggly and wants his neck and beak rubs. But that didn't happen immediately either.
Since Vinnie is an early riser and I am not, some mornings I will put him with his pillow case and foot toys on the corner of my bed while I snooze a little longer. It might sound weird, but I think this significantly helped build his trust for me. I'd close my eyes and he'd climb all over, preening my hair and sitting on my shoulder. (It's the only time I let him on my shoulder.) This also probably sounds weird but I get the feeling he thinks he's protecting me. Now that he's rolling over (and doing somersaults and headstands) he seems content with the corner and doesn't clamber all over me so much.
AND TODAY we have two new "milestones." This morning when he was lying on his back I put a finger to one of his talons. He held on and let me lift him up, upside down about a foot off the bed! We've now done this about 5 times today -- but the last time I tried and he wasn't that into it, I got a nice bite, not being able to pull away because both beak and foot grips were so tight. Tonight he was rolling around on his back, and he rolled off my lap. Three times I caught him in the palm of my hand, and was able to hold him -- backside to my palm and his feet up in the air -- for a minute, and even tickle his tummy before he wanted to right himself. I definitely pay attention to his comfort zones, it just gets me so much further much faster. Plus those bites can be darned hard!
It's interesting to see how different they behave, flighted versus not. I really hadn't thought about it. I didn't expect for Vinnie to be clipped when I brought him home. He definitely behaves more like a lizard monkey dog than a bird (and I wouldn't be surprised if Vasas can swim). I just hope the trade off is worth it to him.
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P.S. I swear Vinnie smiles at me when I cheer him on. You probably already know the value of a good cheer, but he looks at me like "That was pretty good right?" Which makes him want to roll into my palm, or be lift in the air, etc. I really think they enjoy getting a laugh.
Funny story about a swimming vasa....When I was working with Eve before I brought him home. (Eve was not a tame vasa in the beginning) I used to perch him by on the plant tank at the pet shop. He seemed to love it and it was good for socialization. Well one day he decided to jump into the tank! Completely submerged underwater! Freaked the hell out of me! I went scrambling over to him and he just came up out of the water on the other side and climbed up to the other side to perch on the tank frame as if nothing happened! It literally looked like he dived into the tank and and swam underwater to the other side to get out for fun! Now I know vasa's are water loving but?????? Needless to say Eve is not allowed around deep pans, tanks, or buckets of water.
Aside from that..... being female might be a factor. In the wild it is the males that aim to please, but the females are the ones demanding the attention. Every ones their servant! I'm trying to think of ll the vasa people I know and unfortunately they all have males, except for one who is awaiting 2 females. She just joined here and has Murphy. And I know she knows people with females. So it will be interesting if there is a major difference.
Thanks guys, that gives me a lot to think about. I have a couple questions on how to apply these things.
How did you acclimate them to flat surfaces? Anka will sit on my hand or arm, but she won't step onto the bed, or onto my knee.
We played together last night (sorta) for the first time. Usually, she just grabs a toy and runs. She has a knotted rope octopus that is her favorite. It's attached to her cage and she will sit on top and thread it out through the bars so she can drag it around and throw the beaded ends. This time though, I was scratching her head and when we were done with that, she would pick up one of the ends and stuff it in my hand. So then it'd tickle her beak with it, and she'd take it back, run around, then bring it back to me.
Clicker training - I want to clicker train so badly! I tried mid-July for her to learn target, but she didn't react to it. I belong to a clicker training group and they told me it was likely because she is still in not fully weaned baby-bird mode and there is no distinction between treat & "mom is supposed to feed me" food, and that I would have to wait until she was fully weaned before treats were motivational. She takes less weaning pellets from me now, but she still eats them. Will trying again too soon be a problem? Or should I wait?
She isn't as attached to the weaning pellets now. She used to fly to my arm for them, then she quit, so I had her climb to the bottom of her cage to eat them. Now she only will climb down 50% of the time. The other 50% she will wait for me to come to her or honk at me if I don't. So I am not sure if I should let her train me and go to her (risking her thinking squawking gets rewarded, and that I can always come to her), or risk her thinking she's been abandoned by not feeding her
Didn't mean to be so negative, but I have a lot of information I need to figure out what exactly to do with. I want to do right by my Anka
Kimba - I'd love to hear from other female vasa owners if you can track some down!
Sounds like your making more progress than you realize. It's all about comfortably and need. DO you have a play stand? This will help greatly. You could put the play stand next to the bed, with a secure ladder leading to the bed, than sit on the bed while she is on the stand, with all her favorite toys and treats, even if you have to take them from the cage. Than just sit there maybe with a book, and occasionally play with the toys. Make them seem enticing but don't go crazy. It's about her feeling comfortable enough to climb down the ladder and play with her toys. Since she feels weird about flat surfaces you need to keep her in a calm mood, and getting all excited like one would normally do to entice a parrot will probably freak her out. But do this nightly and after a while she should start to show some interest and come to investigate. When she does I would praise her, but again in a soft voice, and just let her do her thing, as she feels comfortable start playing with her.
For flight training find a really good treat other than weaning pellets, maybe raisins? walnuts? Almonds?
My guess being a female vasa who is programmed to make noise for food, that that is what she is doing when she honks. However females whistle to solicit food from males so maybe start whistling back at her. Whistling is better than honking.
And your play session was great from what you described, so don't be discouraged your doing well. As she settles in and grows up she will also calm down a bit. Baby vasa's can be like little ADD children, so have patience.
AS far as clicker training goes, keep trying but don't push it if anything it will help you bond more, which is what it is all really about. Success will come later, it's the time spent together that counts.
I'll email cheri , the lady with murphy who know other female vasa's and see what she has to say.
Great news about the play time! Anka's bound to start looking forward to it the more you play with her. Now I feel utterly guilty when I can't spend time with Vinnie before bedtime; I worry he feels cheated.
I am surprised Anka is still hand feeding from her weaning pellets (the Macaw mixture with hot water?) By the time I got through Vinnie's first bag he was pretty done with them. If I make some, he might take a bite or two but they otherwise go ignored. If he's had a big day, like an outing to the park, or if I notice he hasn't eaten much of anything else, I will offer him the "baby food" but it's pretty rare, and like I said, he pretty much ignores it.
As for clicker training, well I don't know if it would conflict with your feeding her or not. You could always try varying things : like training her in a different room from where she eats, and of course offering treats instead of food. Vinnie gets chopped walnuts for training, because they are pretty small and don't take as much time to eat, or make as much of a mess, as some of the bigger treats out there. And he will do most anything for a walnut!
Vinnie is pretty tactile. When we do any kind of playing or training he wants to be on my person. So when clicker training I just put him on my knee. I know if I want to progress to any kind of prop game (basketball or whatever) this will have to change. But for now -- turn around, high five, touch red, touch yellow etc -- the knee works just fine. If I set him down onto the couch, or bed, or whatever, he just climbs right back up.
Oh! You might try this. Vin loves these treats, and they act much like a pacifier because he has to take them apart before he can eat them. And they're "easy grip" so he doesn't drop them as easily as other treats.
Maybe if you could get Anka on your knee for just a moment to take one of those, she'll hang out for a bit to chew on it? Just a thought.
Definitely check out Kimba's post on flight training. Maybe you can teach Anka that she only gets treats when she comes to you, and not vice versa. (And I don't recommend serving treats on your bed! Messy!)
If I can think of anything else I'll let you know. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Bonding with a Flighted Parrot?
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