Hi
I have a blue-front amazon which i bought from a shop in the U.K in rochdale. The bird was said to be parent reared however slightly tamed with no ID band. The shopkeeper told me it was a female however not dna tested. When i first went to see it , the shopkeeper simply showed me how i should grab it by the back, put it close to my chest and it would then climb up onto my shoulder. I ended up buying this parrot as i had never had one before and found the whole shoulder sitting quite intresting. as time went on i got her out now and then however i stopped grabbing her because she squaked like mad and bit me. i just started to let her come oput of her cage where she would walk along the door onto the sofa and would nibble my hair whilst i was sat down. However today when i do this if i try to put my hand near her when she's out the cage she simply backs off, not aggressively, she jus backs off. when shes in the cage she sometimes lets me stroke her through the bars which is good. However when she is out i cant do anything with her as if she doesnt trust my hand. Is there any way i can get her to trust my hand and maybe teach her to step up? If i could gett this then she would come out more and id play with her a lot more.
Thanks
John
Spring to summer months can put Amazons into grumpy moods considering this is breeding season. However, the bird may have been abused which could add to the problem. The biggest thing I can say...be patient and hang in there. If you Google "Joanie Doss", she has some very good books about Amazons.
Rodney
__________________
Lutino Indian Ringneck / Lucky
Red Lored Amazon / Rio
More like a confused owner... I posted this in another thread and parts of it will serve you well. Good luck! and BTW, always approach and pick-up a parrot from the front. Never from the back or above.
Robert, great posting but I don't agree with four suggestions:
1. Never use warm water on a bird, it will strip the natural oils of his feathers and skin and, besides, in my experience, they actually like cold water better.
2. Never blow dry, at least, not in a warm setting.
3. Rule of thumb is 'No meat for vegetarian animals' and all parrots, with the exception of very few species, are vegetarians. We used to feed meat when we did not have the avian liquid calcium supplements to provide vitamin D3 but that is no longer necessary and the fat in the meat is not good for birds (obesity, high cholesterol, blocked arteries, etc), besides, unless you are talking a lean, pastured, all organic/vegetarian fed, no hormones or antibiotics raised animal, you would only be feeding it tainted meat.
4. Sexual caresses - it's a dangerous thing to do with a hormonal parrot. You are not really giving them any relief and only making the situation worse.
I appreciate your reply. Permit me these 'opinions' if you will.
Number 1. Not true at all. Note that I said warm and not hot water, which may do as you say if the Amazon were given a very long shower. And I'd be more inclined to agree with you on this point specifically with regard to 'dry oil' birds like Cockatoos and Greys. With an Amazon a warm water shower will do absolutely no harm and will not strip the oil. Cold water showers for a parrot? Are you serious? Do YOU like them. I would go for cool, and then again only, in very warm climates.
Number 2. I didn't express myself properly in mentioning this, so I'm very glad you took me up on it, as a parrot could come to harm if this were improperly done. I don't advocate fully drying the bird with a blow-dryer. More like; only half-way dry. And what I should have said at length was; Blow drying is fine on a warm low temperature setting. Never ever hot, and when so doing keep the bird at least a foot and a half away from the source. Even then, this 'issue' is climate dependant. In warmer climates it's probably unnecessary. In colder climates, a parrot might get a cold if the excess water isn't removed.
Number 3. I agree with you in part, and then, in theory more than practice. I'm not advocating a diet high in meat consumption. To the contrary I believe I said that parrots should be given meat occasionally, and yes, it should be lean. Make it very occasionally if you like but, in this scenerio... obesity, high cholesterol, blocked arteries aren't even a remote issue. Besides... Parrots aren't vegetarians. They're omnivorous. They will and do eat animal protein in the wild. Though truly it is only a very small component of the diet. Opinions are varied on this, but I won't fight you on the topic. I do respect your opinion I just don't necessarily, completely, share it.
Number 4. Depends on whether it's a male or a female and my suggestion was only for a female. Ideally the response would be to get the animal some relief. Nature's calling them. It's their natural, yearly cycle, and lasts but a brief time.
With a male... I'd completely agree with you. It's not like you can easily get him a female, so it's best to leave him be. As I said earlier, males can be dangerous with hormones raging. With females it's different. You know as well as I that all parrots are individuals, so it's up to the owner to 'know' their bird. Some females, depending upon how closely they're bonded to their humans, will permit and welcome this handling. Some will not. It has a lot to do with the individuals and the relationship. My parrot was a female who, after a number of years permitted me a degree of hands-on (and I don't mean sexual in this context), that went far beyond what most amazons are known for.
For you to say (regarding sexual caresses), "You are not really giving them any relief and only making the situation worse.", just has me believe that however you came by this information, it probably wasn't by direct experience. I can assure you the parrot most certainly is getting relief. With my parrot, the sessions lasted only a short time, and continued over a random number of days for a only a few weeks each year. Over many years the bird exhibited no behavior problems whatsoever.
On this last point, I know your 'opinion' is the general concensus on the matter, and perhaps it is generally correct for most. Certainly the easiest route to take for the puritanical and unenlightened parrot owner. Maybe I shouldn't have posted the 'massage' advice to a novice. It takes an unusually close relationship of trust that's born of many years.
Number 1. No, I don't like cold showers but then I am not a parrot and, besides, I don't give my parrots showers. I put out bowls of water and they bathe themselves as nature intended. I do mist the Amazons and some of the tiels but that's only as a special treat because they happen to like it. And I always use cool water for this, in the birdroom, it's a 'warm climate' all year round.
Number 2. Why would a parrot need to be blow dried? There is no such thing in Nature. They bathe and, when they are done, they preen in the sunshine... nothing better than that.
Number 3. Sorry, I don't mean to offend but you are misinformed. With the exception of vasas and keas, all other companion species of parrots are vegetarians not omnivorous. Gulls, chickens, rheas, corvids, etc are omnivorous but not parrots. And this is not my personal opinion, it's the way they are classified by ornithologists.
Number 4. Well, I came to this opinion by caring for parrots for the last 18 years, both males and females and of different species. If you want to give the bird relief from sexual frustration, all you have to do is get the bird a mate (which I would wholeheartedly endorse as I believe that all social animals should live with other members of their own or very similar species and not just humans). Not a difficult thing to do when there are thousands of them in rescues waiting for a good home... and I bet what the bird would choose if she had a say in the matter because, regardless of how much we love them and how bonded they are to us, we are, at best, very inadequate mate replacements for them.
In answering you, I've been speaking in shades of grey. I'm qualifying everything. You seem to insist on absolute answers; either black or white. My world doesn't work that way. My parrot keeping experience didn't work that way. When one lives in the box, the usual rules may apply. Some situations necessitate thinking outside of the box. Doing things in creative ways. Thinking unconventionally and independently. I'm not implying you don't, but I am saying that I do.
Number 1. You live in a warm climate year round. I don't. (I envy you for this by the way) My original post suggested giving a parrot the opportunity to bathe, be it by sink, misting or shower. I mentioned my BF preferring to come into the shower with me. Certainly you don't have a problem with this, do you? You had an issue with the temperature. Please. In hot weather I take cool showers. In colder months, (and I don't keep my home overly warm), I take warmer showers. If it's comfortable for me, it's comfortable for the parrot. I don't go to extremes. In the warmer/hotter seasons, the parrot could air dry. In the colder months, I removed excess water from her with a dryer. It's a creative solution that works. I invite you to come to a cold climate in the winter, to a comfortable (but not overly warm) indoor environment; take a cool or cold shower, and you can air dry. I didn't care to see my parrot shivering - so I'd remove the excess water with a dryer. BTW, the oils from her feathers were never stripped off. I always received compliments (when we went to the vet) about how beautiful her feathers looked. They always had a beautiful sheen to them. This has a lot to do with diet as well. You may own, or have owned, or have seen beautiful amazons - but never one in more beautiful feather than mine, and I have pictures to prove it. Can we leave this one alone now?
Number 2. (also answered above) Your parrots dry and preen themselves in the sunshine. Yes, this is ideal. I didn't have that luxury.
Number 3. You didn't offend me, and I hope that nothing I post offends you either. That said; I don't believe that I'm misinformed, and I'd like to believe that I'm open-minded enough to learn new things. Let's be clear on this topic. I advocated occasionally giving the Amazon lean meat. Further on, I said that it's only a very small component of the diet. Let's say... fractionally small. Would a parrot suffer if any and all 'meat' were removed from its diet? Probably not, there are other protein substitutes. BUT, parrots aren't classified as vegetarian.
In this reference, http://www.anslab.iastate.edu/Class/...0Nutrition.pdf parrots are classified as specialist feeders (oligivore), further subclassified as granivores. Taken from within; and I'm comfortable with this statement... "The majority of companion and aviary birds are considered opportunistic omnivores; that is, they will eat a large number of the foods that are available to them at any specific time." - Randal N. Brue, Ph.D., vice-president for research, Kaytee Products.
I recall reading early written accounts, of keeping and breeding parrots in captivity. It was strictly a hit-or-miss proposition. These aviculturists didn't really know what they were doing because very little was known about pssitacines in their natural state. Diet was a mystery and attempts at breeding met with little success. It was trial and error all the way. When a clutch of eggs did hatch... mysteriously, the adult parents would kill their young. This was found to be due to protein deprivation, as the birds nutritional needs weren't being met. We've come a long way since then.
Regarding the wild state, Feeding Your Bird for Health "Psittacine birds in their natural habitat will consume a variety of food items, including seeds, nuts, grains, sprouts and leaves, insects, and fruits. Some have even been known to consume meat (mice, small birds, and carcasses)."
Additionally, Unique Amazon Parrots
In the wild, Amazons eat nuts, berries, fruits and vegetables, including shoots, buds, pods, seeds and blossoms. They are not completely vegetarian; they will eat grubs and, when available, carrion. Pet Amazons need a wide variety of fresh foods like fruit and vegetables, raw or cooked. This helps provide a balanced diet and helps hold their interest.
Number 4. I completely agree with you. I also stand by what I said, "Some females, depending upon how closely they're bonded to their humans, will permit and welcome this handling. Some will not. It has a lot to do with the individuals and the relationship."
I'm sure after 18 years of caring for parrots you've a lot of knowledge and skill. I think that's great. Any loving and caring parrot owner or caregiver is okay in my book, especially those who step forward and try to help others like you do. Many parrot enthusiasts own multiple birds. The more the merrier. It's a real labor of love to be able to properly maintain many animals. In an ideal world we wouldn't keep any animals captive. They're certainly better off in their natural state. Mankind though, has historically been very effective in completely altering the balance of nature and how things should be. In many ways it's a sad state of affairs on many fronts. Maybe people shouldn't own birds, but they do and everyones situation is different. When I was younger I had a few parrots. For the past 24 years I've only owned one Amazon. Now she's gone. Maybe it was just her time. Read the brief story if you like. Soybeans, edamame may kill your parrot...
Given the time, I feel that one dedicated, involved, caring and knowledgable parrot owner can build a far stronger bond and relationship with one bird, than if he (or she) had to look after many birds. You might be surprised at what could come out of it. You know very well the challenges, be they behavioral, emotional, psychological or medical. Every bird is truly an individual, and keeping one bird is easy compared to having many.
I tried to give my parrot a great life, and I feel that I was successful. She was flighted, never clipped, and never locked-up. She had a good and varied diet - which is probably where I failed, but not because of her having any meat. She had company for hours a day. She had toys exercise and mental stimulation. Over time she permitted me much handling. Very unusual for an amazon, for they're generally not cuddly pets. I played with this one like she were a puppy or a kitten, so much did she enjoy my (always gentle) handling of her. I gave her space when she wanted it, and always spoke softly to her. She was young when I got her but not hand-raised or socialized. It took a number of years for a real bond to grow, and this seemed to stengthen over time.
She came into sexual maturity after a number of years, and having no intention of getting her a mate, I pretty much ignored her during those times. One day when she was about fifteen, I was lying down watching TV, and she flew over to me and 'presented' herself. You know by the females bodily movements and sounds. For whatever reason, I gave her a massage. She seemed to really enjoy it. I held her gently as I did so, and after a few short minutes, she'd had enough and pulled away from me. This occured a few random days, over a couple of weeks, and that was it until the following year. Funny, but I recall reading someone else's similar experience on the newsnet (rec.pets.birds) a number of years ago. That person got a similar reaction and worse, than what you posted to me. I was amused, posted nothing back on the board, but at least, I felt that I wasn't the only one. I will say though, these are unusual circumstances that I guess have a lot to do with the nature of the individuals and the relationship between them. You might disagree. Sorry. I know this did relieve any potential frustration the parrot might've had, with no adverse repercussions. To the contrary, my parrot living with me never had any behaviorial problems, psychological or emotional issues. She wasn't a screamer, biter, nor did she ever pluck her feathers. Not that she wasn't mischievous, she was very... and she did destroy a number of 'things' over the years as parrots are known to do, but we had fun. It was a pleasure having the company of this little soul. I miss her. I thought she'd live to twice the age she did but at my age, I don't think I'll get another - at least not for now.
Beatriz, ultimately... I appreciate your critical and objective comments. Reconsidering my original post in answer to a novices question; I shouldn't have given any advice about relieving a parrots sexual frustration. Some things like politics and religion (in some forums) shouldn't be discussed. Your point of view on the matter is solid. And my solution to this issue was beyond the norm and the experience level of most.
Number 1 - Oh, no, no, Robert! I live in the Poconos, in Pa. It's very cold here in the winter. I said 'in the birdroom it's always a warm climate'. It has its own thermostat so it's always kept at a warm temperature, even in the winter (to the detriment of the temperate climate birds -canaries, doves, cardinal- so another room is been prepared for them and they will be moved there this winter).
Number 2 - Same as above, it's because of the fixtures that it's always sunny. The birdroom does have double windows on three sides with East to West exposure on its short sides and South on its length but I also have full spectrum ceiling lights in there (which get changed every three months so as to maintain a consistent quality of light) and they make it nice and sunny even in the grayest day of winter. There are branches hanging from the ceiling (along with swings, ropes, toys, etc) so the birds can dry up and preen closer to the lights if they want to... the larger species don't do it but the little ones like to perch up high to dry up after a bath, especially the tiels who sometimes do it upside down with their wings wide open to the sides like some weird bat .
Number 3 - I never, ever take the opinion of anybody with a vested interest into consideration when doing research so Kaytee's guy's comment is worthless as far as I am concerned. These people make pellets out of peanuts, soy (and I agree 100% with you about soy beans been bad for birds, I've done a lot of research on it and have been saying it for years) sunflowers, artificial colors and flavors and chemical preservatives so they are obviously not what you would consider very conscientious about birds diets. And I've never heard of the other guy, John something or the other. I googled his name and couldn't find a single reference to him related to birds or otherwise. I couldn't open the third link because it's a pdf and I've been having problems with my Adobe but the fact that they are classified as specialized eaters doesn't mean they are omnivores. And, as far as I am aware of, there are very few species of psittacines that are granivores and only partial at that (like tiels and keets). Granivores are seed eaters and they have a specialized beak and gizzard to deal with this diet which parrots don't have. Parrots beaks and their digestive system is geared toward raw vegetal material... and they do eat a lot of seeds but they are green ones. The larger species are mostly canope eaters and those are not granivores by any stretch of the imagination as grains don't grow on trees. But we are not talking about seeds here so it doesn't really matter.
And, as far as I know and unless this has changed very recently, most parrot species ARE classified as vegetarians but you are correct in that parrots are mostly opportunistic eaters, especially captive ones. Most animals are. Dogs would gorge on chocolate given half a chance and cats that are lactose-intolerant would drink milk by the gallons so I don't go by what an animal 'would' eat, I go by what they 'should' eat. Parrots will also eat all kinds of things that are not good for them (like french fries and Big Macs!) and most especially anything that has a high protein content. They just love protein because Nature gave them a craving for it. There are very few sources of high concentration of protein in vegetal matter (nuts, seeds and beans come to mind) but they are not plentiful in the wild and not easily found in the jungle and, as protein is necessary for breeding and nature is all about the continuation of the species, whenever they find a source of protein, they eat and eat and eat. And that is good because then they would go a long, long time before they find another good source. But, in captivity, one of the main problems birds have is the consumption of too much protein. Their livers are simply not made to process it all the time and in large quantities and so you have 6 year old Greys with fatty liver, keets that have overgrown beaks at 7, macaws with xanthomas at 9, etc. etc. All because of inadequate diet.
Number 4. I agree, most people should not keep any kind of bird and least of all parrots. They are too difficult to keep healthy and happy and we do them a huge disservice when we make them our pets. I actually don't 'own' any parrots. I run a small rescue and so, I am their caregiver. I certainly don't consider them my property... to me, they are my wards and I their guardian. But I started with one (Pretty Bird, a RLA) and I did develop a strong bond with her (she lived with me for 18 years) so I know exactly what you are talking about. Nowadays, I choose to direct them to establishing bonds with other birds but, if they want my love and personal attention they have it although I always try to wean them of the need for human company. It works with some but not with all so I normally walk and do my chores around the birdroom with a couple of birds on my shoulders and one or two hanging from my legs and even the seat of my pants!
Been a while ... sorry. I just wanted to 'clean-up' a few points.
Number 1 - So you are in the Northeast, my mistake. I am too btw, (Westchester NY), I mentally keyed on your saying that it's a warm climate in the birdroom all year round. Your birds have a nice setup. I've noticed a few of your photos.
Number 2 - (just so you know) Not everyone of my rooms was or is 'warm' all year round. My parrot had free flight anywhere inside, and I just didn't like to see her shivering after a bath. I carefully got her 1/2 to 3/4 dry with some air. Believe me, I was always careful. There was a method to my madness in doing things my own way, but I see how the advice could've been misinterpreted.
She would come into the shower with me anytime she wanted, and even had her own perch in there. I'd let the warm water deflect off of me on to her. The water was aerated (and cooled) in the process. I'd say her bath/shower water was luke-warm to tepid. Never overly warm, and there was never a problem with the oils being striped from her feathers. As a matter of fact (imho ), she was a beautiful parrot! Did you see the two photos I posted in the other thread? I still can't agree with a cold water bath for a parrot. Cool water baths in the warm seasons is the most slack I can cut you here.
Number 3 - Just for the record, I never bought or used Kaytee food products. I agree with your position here. BUT, the quote (out of context), is what I agreed with. Too bad you can't see the entire .pdf - you may find it interesting as reference material. It's taken from the 'Animal Science Computer Labs' at Iowa State University, and has nothing to do Kaytee. It's a reference for a course on Exotic Bird Nutrition. Maybe you can uninstall, and re-install your Adobe .pdf reader. I still feel that feeding a limited amount of lean meat protein on an occasional basis can't be that harmful. Perhaps I'm wrong here but it's too late now. Admittedly, I was guilty... I did give mine probably too much. She enjoyed it immensly. If anything did her in... it was the other things that I posted about.
Just wanted to get back to you on these few points, but we can put this thread to rest.
Confused blue-front
Re: Confused blue-front
and BTW, always approach and pick-up a parrot from the front. Never from the back or above.
No, I don't like cold showers but then I am not a parrot and, besides, I don't give my parrots showers. I put out bowls of water and they bathe themselves as nature intended. I do mist the Amazons and some of the tiels but that's only as a special treat because they happen to like it. And I always use cool water for this, in the birdroom, it's a 'warm climate' all year round.
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